COVID 19 GLOBAL

[Mr. Smooth]

On 2/1/2022 at 5:42 PM, forcebwithu said:

Not surprised to read this study's conclusion. Once the China virus was let loose on the world there really wasn't going to be an effective way to stop it, short of a global vaccination program.

Lockdowns had little or no impact on COVID-19 deaths, new study shows

Lockdowns in the U.S. and Europe had little or no impact in reducing deaths from COVID-19, according to a new analysis by researchers at Johns Hopkins University.

The lockdowns during the early phase of the pandemic in 2020 reduced COVID-19 mortality by about 0.2%, said the broad review of multiple scientific studies.

“We find no evidence that lockdowns, school closures, border closures, and limiting gatherings have had a noticeable effect on COVID-19 mortality,” the researchers wrote.

But the research paper said lockdowns did have “devastating effects” on the economy and contributed to numerous social ills.

“They have contributed to reducing economic activity, raising unemployment, reducing schooling, causing political unrest, contributing to domestic violence, and undermining liberal democracy,” the report said.

“Such a standard benefit-cost calculation leads to a strong conclusion: lockdowns should be rejected out of hand as a pandemic policy instrument,” the paper concluded.
...

Despite those who throw cold water on such studies because they weren't peer reviewed, as if they need to be in order to be taken seriously, I found the article knowledgeable and going to great pains to say that all the lockdowns in the early going wasn't necessary with the possible exception of bar closures. But to close parks, gyms, stadiums, outdoor gatherings, and all the unintended consequences resulting from such draconian measures, was wholly illogical and unnecessary. Not to mention downright wrong!

Someone like Dr Anthony Fauci, wasn't satisfied with simply giving his medical opinion on the virus, but rather desired to dictate economic policy with his recommendation of closing down so many jobs, where we then had the government defining who and what was essential and non-essential. It wasn't the governments or Fauci's purview to make any such determination. 

This study simply reinforces the viewpoint that has been gathering speed over these past months that the governments reaction to the virus, and the inherent consequences resulting from such a ham- handed strategy, helped along by the constant hysterics of the media, were the wrong course of action.

But one important factor missing from the article and cannot be overstated, is that this was all being done against the backdrop of an upcoming Presidential election which the current occupant could not, under any circumstances be successful in winning re-election.

[Nightcrawler]

1 hour ago, Mr. Smooth said:

Despite those who throw cold water on such studies because they weren't peer reviewed, as if they need to be in order to be taken seriously, I found the article knowledgeable and going to great pains to say that all the lockdowns in the early going wasn't necessary with the possible exception of bar closures. But to close parks, gyms, stadiums, outdoor gatherings, and all the unintended consequences resulting from such draconian measures, was wholly illogical and unnecessary. Not to mention downright wrong!

Someone like Dr Anthony Fauci, wasn't satisfied with simply giving his medical opinion on the virus, but rather desired to dictate economic policy with his recommendation of closing down so many jobs, where we then had the government defining who and what was essential and non-essential. It wasn't the governments or Fauci's purview to make any such determination. 

This study simply reinforces the viewpoint that has been gathering speed over these past months that the governments reaction to the virus, and the inherent consequences resulting from such a ham- handed strategy, helped along by the constant hysterics of the media, were the wrong course of action.

But one important factor missing from the article and cannot be overstated, is that this was all being done against the backdrop of an upcoming Presidential election which the current occupant could not, under any circumstances be successful in winning re-election.

Dr. Fauci is not the only scientist involved in Covid. And the USA is not the only country to be affected by Covid. Yet lock downs, social dancing and face protection has occurred all over the world in numerous countries. So do you blame all scientists for their advice or do imagine that Fauci is responsible? 

In UK we have our own medical advisers as do other countries. There is a political section for Covid on the forum. The USA is not the be an end all of the world and I do not mean that disrespectfully to any American forum members 

Fauci has, served as an adviser to 6 Presidents since 1984 starting with Reagan. Go figure

[Mr. Smooth]

56 minutes ago, Nightcrawler said:

Dr. Fauci is not the only scientist involved in Covid. And the USA is not the only country to be affected by Covid. Yet lock downs, social dancing and face protection has occurred all over the world in numerous countries. So do you blame all scientists for their advice or do imagine that Fauci is responsible? 

In UK we have our own medical advisers as do other countries. There is a political section for Covid on the forum. The USA is not the be an end all of the world and I do not mean that disrespectfully to any American forum members 

As an American citizen, I was writing from that perspective. Someone who claims to be as smart as you should certainly have recognized that simple fact.

I am not a citizen of the UK, or any other country, and how those countries governments and medical experts reacted toward their citizens is up to them. You got me? The USA is not the end all of the world, but we do carry a large influence for the rest of the world, especially regarding Western Europe, a fact that you are most certainly aware of, being allies and major trading partners.  And one other thing, this Covid virus was politicized in short order and just because I might add light to the fact that these lock downs and closures that went on in the USA, were done against the backdrop of a Presidential election, does not mean that automatically this entire post needs to be relegated to the political thread. I'm not posting A POLITICAL OPINION, or engaging in any political discourse, but simply stating a fact that was being left out of the article in question. As a moderator, you should be smart enough to understand that when reading. 

My view toward Fauci changed by the summer of 2020 when his flip flopping regarding Covid started in full, and he could never give a straight answer to a basic question, always couching his replies in abstract non-answers. His initial answer to wearing a mask in early 2020 was most likely genuine, when he said that the basic cloth masks being worn didn't do anything that would stop the spread of the virus. If it made people feel better then go ahead, but it wasn't necessary. Then he flipped flopped on that, and then there was the everchanging of the goalposts. What had been truth one day, became an untruth the next. And on it went. And as I have posted before, Fauci became more than simply a doctor rendering his opinion but rather he became a late in life celebrity and has been wallowing in it ever since, while disavowing other esteemed doctors of epidemiology who have a different viewpoint. Fauci once claimed that to go against him, was to go against science! I mean, how high and mighty can you become?

Predictably, Americans have been shutting this guy out in increasing numbers and his influence is only being propped up by the friendly media who won't dare challenge him on his rhetoric.

This report basically throws the entire narrative about restrictions and lock downs out the door, and that more people are now coming around to what a crock these government instituted mandates were, and how the unintended consequences were incredibly detrimental to the economy, to children's education with school lock downs and to our overall quality of life.

This report simply reinforces that fact.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mr. Smooth

[Nightcrawler]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Smooth said:

As an American citizen, I was writing from that perspective. Someone who claims to be as smart as you should certainly have recognized that simple fact.

I am not a citizen of the UK, or any other country, and how those countries governments and medical experts reacted toward their citizens is up to them. You got me? The USA is not the end all of the world, but we do carry a large influence for the rest of the world, especially regarding Western Europe, a fact that you are most certainly aware of, being allies and major trading partners.  And one other thing, this Covid virus was politicized in short order and just because I might add light to the fact that these lock downs and closures that went on in the USA, were done against the backdrop of a Presidential election, does not mean that automatically this entire post needs to be relegated to the political thread. I'm not posting A POLITICAL OPINION, or engaging in any political discourse, but simply stating a fact that was being left out of the article in question. As a moderator, you should be smart enough to understand that when reading. 

My view toward Fauci changed by the summer of 2020 when his flip flopping regarding Covid started in full, and he could never give a straight answer to a basic question, always couching his replies in abstract non-answers. His initial answer to wearing a mask in early 2020 was most likely genuine, when he said that the basic cloth masks being worn didn't do anything that would stop the spread of the virus. If it made people feel better then go ahead, but it wasn't necessary. Then he flipped flopped on that, and then there was the everchanging of the goalposts. What had been truth one day, became an untruth the next. And on it went. And as I have posted before, Fauci became more than simply a doctor rendering his opinion but rather he became a late in life celebrity and has been wallowing in it ever since, while disavowing other esteemed doctors of epidemiology who have a different viewpoint. Fauci once claimed that to go against him, was to go against science! I mean, how high and mighty can you become?

Predictably, Americans have been shutting this guy out in increasing numbers and his influence is only being propped up by the friendly media who won't dare challenge him on his rhetoric.

This report basically throws the entire narrative about restrictions and lock downs out the door, and that more people are now coming around to what a crock these government instituted mandates were, and how the unintended consequences were incredibly detrimental to the economy, to children's education with school lock downs and to our overall quality of life.

This report simply reinforces that fact.

This is what blame culture is all about. 

Instead of blaming the Virus.

I totally disagree with you but we will have to beg to differ. 

What has happened in the US has happened throughout the World and not unique. Nor was it down to just one person.  Leaders make decisions ultimately

[Mr. Smooth]

18 minutes ago, Nightcrawler said:

This is what blame culture is all about. 

Instead of blaming the Virus.

I totally disagree with you but we will have to beg to differ. 

What has happened in the US has happened throughout the World and not unique. 

Disagree with me about what? School lockdowns? Beach and recreational places being closed? What is this "blame culture" you speak of? Blaming the virus? No Crawler, I blame China for that, they are the ones to place the blame on and no other entity. That isn't a "culture", rather that is called "responsibility" and "accountability".

Do you blame a dog if it bites you causing injury? Or do you blame the irresponsible dog owner for letting it run loose throughout the neighborhood?

That virus simply acted like viruses do, it makes people sick who contract it. And a very small percentage of people who came down with it and were most vulnerable with compromised immune systems, tragically died because of it. And how was it set forth out into the world? Why, by a lab leak in Wuhan, China, that how.

The blame for all of this is with China.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Mr. Smooth

[Nightcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Smooth said:

Disagree with me about what? School lockdowns? Beach and recreational places being closed? What is this "blame culture" you speak of? Blaming the virus? No Crawler, I blame China for that, they are the ones to place the blame on and no other entity. That isn't a "culture", rather that is called "responsibility" and "accountability".

Do you blame a dog if it bites you causing injury? Or do you blame the irresponsible dog owner for letting it run loose throughout the neighborhood?

That virus simply acted like viruses do, it makes people sick who contract it. And a very small percentage of people who came down with it and were most vulnerable with compromised immune systems, tragically died because of it. And how was it set forth out into the world? Why, by a lab leak in Wuhan, China, that why.

The blame for all of this is with China.

I don't blame anyone. 

It's, easier to blame  others than ourselves. 

BUT IF there has to be blame, then that lies ultimately with the leaders of those countries who adopted Covid policies. Not their advisers. 

[forcebwithu]

I look forward to seeing more studies like the one I posted earlier. When the pandemic first kicked off none of us, from govt leaders, scientists, medical professionals, down to Joe 6 pack had a clue what the best response should be.

I remember early on in the pandemic a few of us were challenging the economic and mental health cost of lockdowns vs  a more restrained response to try and slow down the spread of the virus. Now those with the expertise to do so are using the data available now that we didn't have then to try and answer that question.

Hopefully the results of these studies will provide guidance going forward. Unfortunately it's questionable if our govt leaders will listen to the good advice that comes from these studies.

[Stillearly]

🙂 

 

 

[lazarus]

11 hours ago, Nightcrawler said:

The USA is not the be an end all of the world and I do not mean that disrespectfully to any American forum members 

555...

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by lazarus

[Mr. Smooth]

1 hour ago, Nightcrawler said:

I don't blame anyone. 

It's, easier to blame  others than ourselves. 

BUT IF there has to be blame, then that lies ultimately with the leaders of those countries who adopted Covid policies. Not their advisers. 

So you don't place any blame for Covid being set upon the world by China? They get off Scott free in your view? How neighborly of you!

Your first sentence in the above quoted post maintains you don't blame anyone. Then your third sentence undermines the first one, as you go on to blame, if there has to be blame on anyone, a caveat even Fauci would applaud, on the leaders of those countries who adopted Covid policies, meaning.....the political leaders of those countries. But haven't you praised these very same leaders for the restrictions and requirements they put in place during these past 2 years? If I've read one post of yours heaping praise on these people, I've read a hundred!

So now, at the end of the day, by admitting this, you are actually agreeing with the findings of the report in question. It was a roundabout way to admit you've been wrong all this time regarding mandates and closures and restrictions and you finally arrive at the opposite conclusion, but congrats Crawler. Better late than never. 

For those of us who were just a little skeptical of these Covid mandates and restrictions from the beginning, welcome to the Dark Side. 😄

 

[lazarus]

Masks still matter where Covid is circulating...

 

[Bazle]

17 minutes ago, lazarus said:

Masks still matter where Covid is circulating...

 

Correlation or causation? 

[lazarus]

1 hour ago, Bazle said:

Correlation or causation? 

Clarification.

[Krapow]

Next step that needs to happen is the daily fear reports of  infections and deaths to stop. We don't do it for anything else.

I think and hope they'll stop it in the UK, well, England soonish, by Summer very latest.

Time to take personal responsibility and get on with life.

[lazarus]

20 minutes ago, Krapow said:

Next step that needs to happen is the daily fear reports of  infections and deaths to stop. We don't do it for anything else.

I think and hope they'll stop it in the UK, well, England soonish, by Summer very latest.

Time to take personal responsibility and get on with life.

Yeah, reminds me of the daily body counts here in the US on the nightly news during the Vietnam war.

Normalization is happening in some countries (see article about Denmark below). Really depends on the ability of health care systems to handle potential upswings without straining normal resources.

As far as people taking "personal responsibility" I have my doubts about people (without compromising conditions) who are not vaccinated. If they don't care enough to get vaccinated can they be trusted to do the right thing if infected and/or asymptomatic?

. . .

Some countries say COVID is no longer ‘socially critical.’ What does that mean — and can the Bay Area do the same?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Some-countries-say-COVID-is-no-longer-socially-16832515.php

...Danish officials explained that while cases remain numerous, COVID-19 is no longer placing a heavy burden on the country’s health system, as the number of patients in intensive care units has dropped. Officials say that’s due to a high vaccination rate and widespread booster uptake, the Associated Press reported. Almost 81% of the country’s residents are fully vaccinated, according to the Danish Health Authority, and almost 61% have recieved a booster.

“I dare not say that it is a final goodbye to restrictions,” Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen told Danish radio. “We do not know what will happen in the fall, whether there will be a new variant.” ...

... The U.S. remains in a worse position than many of the countries lifting restrictions. The New York Times reported this week that the share of Americans who have been killed by the coronavirus is now at least 63% higher than in other large, wealthy nations, largely due to the U.S.’s lower vaccination and booster rates, especially among vulnerable populations, and patchwork of rules on masking, assembly and social distancing.

Nearly 20% of people hospitalized with COVID-19 in the last month in the U.S. were admitted to the ICU, according to data collected by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, compared to just 2.4% in Denmark... 

Edited February 4, 2022 by lazarus

[forcebwithu]

3 hours ago, Bazle said:

Correlation or causation? 

I was thinking the same thing. There could be other traits that mask wearers adopt or possess that make them less likely to catch Covid. Such as social distancing, good personal sanitation habits, and/or in better health than non-mask wearers.

[lazarus]

20 minutes ago, forcebwithu said:

I was thinking the same thing. There could be other traits that mask wearers adopt or possess that make them less likely to catch Covid. Such as social distancing, good personal sanitation habits, and/or in better health than non-mask wearers.

This takes us back to the need for "personal responsibility."

Vaccinated mask wearers -- whether it be cloth or N95 -- are much more likely to be responsible for not only their own health, but the health of their neighbors as well.

In the absence of this responsibility some will say "live and let live' -- where the reality is more likely live and let die.

Edited February 5, 2022 by lazarus

[fygjam]

1 hour ago, lazarus said:

This takes us back to the need for "personal responsibility."

Vaccinated mask wearers -- whether it be cloth or N95 -- are much more likely to be responsible for not only their own health, but the health of their neighbors as well.

In the absence of this responsibility some will say "live and let live' -- where the reality is more likely live and let die.

I'm sure "personal responsibility" is just a polite way of saying

"Fuk you Jack, I'm OK."

Our Prime Minister, ScuMo, embraced the "personal responsibility" tag late last year. When asked for an explanation he said

“If you want to go outside when the sun is shining, you have got to put sunscreen on. This is the same thing,”

It was quickly pointed out that if you didn't put sunscreen on it was still you who got sunburned, not the person next to you.

It's a tough job being PM.

 

Last December a French backpacker blew into Western Australia from Queensland, unvaccinated although he had been offered vaccination.

Several days after his arrival he developed the classic symptoms of Covid-19. Taking his "personal responsibility" seriously he and 400 or so other backpackers went to a nightclub for a party.

Not until 4 days later did he bother to go and get tested. As per protocol, he was told to isolate until the test results were known. The next day when the test results were available, he was positive, he couldn't be found at the address where he was supposed to be in isolation. Police had to trace his mobile phone to find where he was sleeping after a hard night of isolating all over town. "Personal responsibility" can be a bitch at times.

Meanwhile contact tracers had begun the task of finding the rest of the party goers. Once the word got out that, as close contacts, they had to isolate until tested, "personal responsibility" kicked in and a large proportion turned off their phones to avoid being traced and dispersed here, there and everywhere. There is now covid here, there and everywhere, in the country towns where it had never been before, in the mining camps which had remained covid free throughout the pandemic, on the offshore gas rigs.

In the 20 months prior to the French fukwit blowing into town WA had experienced 33 cases of local transmission of covid. In the 6 weeks since the FFW arrived WA has experienced 479 cases of local transmission.

Yup, I'm sure "personal responsibility" is the way out of the pandemic.

Fuk you Jack!

 

[Krapow]

Where i live, it already has moved to people taking responsibility instead of Government mandates for nearly everything. The last restrictions like forced isolation, contact tracing etc are mooted to go in the Summer.

You want to wear a mask, do, indeed wear two if you like, if you want to avoid crowded areas, then do, if you don't want to use public transport or go on holiday, then don't, if you don't want to go to a restaurant and prefer takeaways, then do that. Do what you feel comfortable with, take some personal responsibility. 

Everybody already does it in life anyway, i mean if i'm walking down the street, in a bar, restaurant whatever, and i see a couple of nutters walking up towards me, then i'll take some personal responsibility and avoid them. Rocket Science it isn't.

Whilst i appreciate some, the Lefties of the Board, want Gov to continue telling everybody what they can and can't do as much as possible, love big state, thankfully not everyone is like that. 

Governments don't mandate for the Flu other similar viruses, and now there is a wide range of treatments and vaccines for Covid, sooner or later most places in the world will move to dealing with Covid in the same way as they do with the flu or similar. Those that don't like that or are terrified of the thought, perhaps should consider moving to China where they'll have all the mandates they love and where people are told pretty much what they can and can't do around everything. Or stay in hiding behind the sofa with 4 masks on, whatever they feel comfortable with, take personal responsibility.

Covid isn't going anywhere, most places have accepted the way out of this will be it will become endemic, those that want or need continual vaccines can get them and/or the various other treatments as needed, Gov mandates and restrictions will be lifted, forced self isolation, contact tracing etc will be a distant memory, people will get their lives back and do what they feel comfortable, take personal responsibility. 

Some seem to have forgot what life was like before this, the Gov induced fear is still strong in them. Not everyone wants the Government telling them when they can go out to the shop or not. Where i live anyway, we've moved to a taking personal responsibility and learning to live with Covid, which i'm very happy  about. I understood and agreed with the need for all the restrictions before, but now the damage they do in all sorts of ways, to the economy, society at large, people's health etc etc is more than any perceived gain, now that we have the vaccines, many other treatments and a much less severe dominate strain.  

Personal responsibility and living with Covid, coming to a a town near you soon. I feel a Red Hot Chili Peppers song coming on in homage to a previous member ...

 

 

[lazarus]

Still keeping count...

US death toll from COVID-19 hits 900,000, sped by omicron

https://apnews.com/article/us-hits-covid-deaths-milestone-coronavirus-omicron-76dc452fb7263612529e09eb23bc0f24

[lazarus]

Time to open up Thailand...or all the hotels will go out of business.

Yet, perceived public opinion appears to sway the gov'ment authorities.

Test & Go 'cumbersome', says hotel tycoon

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2259263/test-go-cumbersome-says-hotel-tycoon

... “If you’re vaccinated and tested you must be allowed to travel without so much paperwork,” said Mr Heinecke, who heads one of Asia’s largest hospitality, restaurant and lifestyle companies.

Tourism numbers in Thailand are “going to be tough and challenging for a while until the government changes its position”, he said.

While Thailand this month resumed its Test & Go programme, Mr Heinecke labelled the requirements — multiple Covid tests, the need to use an online registration system and having an insurance policy with at least $50,000 cover — as “cumbersome”. (I agree)

“The US remained open through all this period pretty much and Europe has also handled it pretty well,” he said. “These are the bright spots — we don’t see difficulties or roadblocks stopping tourism from the rest of the world.”

A government spokesman on Saturday defended the current approach, saying the travel measures are in place to improve confidence both among local residents and foreigners, after the recent surge in Omicron cases...

Edited February 7, 2022 by lazarus
typo

[lazarus]

On 2/3/2022 at 8:05 AM, lazarus said:

I looked at that John Hopkins study. It's a literature meta-analysis review from three economists and has yet to be peer reviewed. Lots of statistics. I suggest that anyone on this forum who has a graduate level knowledge of statistics to please read it and comment:

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

Certain elements of the media have jumped all over this paper as it affirms frustration with the Covid epidemic response.

There definitely will be more to come from both camps.

more...

Here’s What We Know About ‘Johns Hopkins Study’ on Lockdowns
It's a non-peer reviewed working paper that has not been endorsed by the university.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/03/johns-hopkins-study-on-lockdowns/

“Throughout the pandemic, most COVID research out of Johns Hopkins University has typically come from its Coronavirus Resource Center, an initiative run out the university’s world-renowned medical school.

But the new paper, which was drafted by three economists, comes out of the university’s unaffiliated Krieger School of Arts and Sciences.”

The Bottom Line

The viral “Johns Hopkins study” about lockdowns was not the work of Johns Hopkins University, it was not peer-reviewed, and it was not written by epidemiologists. A number of researchers have also taken issue with the methods used in this study.

Furthermore, the conclusions of this non-peer reviewed working paper run counter to published studies in academic journals that found lockdowns did prevent COVID-19 deaths...

[Mr. Smooth]

I just received a whatsapp message early this morning from an old friend and former coworker who is living in the Philippines and he gave me a confirmation on arrivals. For incoming passengers, the requirements for entry are simply proof of being fully vaccinated and a negative PCR test no more than 48 hours prior to the start of travel to the PI. Thats it! No more quarantines, no secondary PCR tests 5 days or 7 days later......nothing!

To me, that should be enough. Satisfy the needs of the state without those needs being so burdensome to the individual, and welcome and have a good time. Thailand should follow suit with a similar entry policy for foreigners and allow the tourism-based sector of their economy to flourish once again.

[biggles]

I am in AC and did read on a local board that you need a $35k insurance coverage as well. From an IATF ruling:-

travel insurance for Covid-19 treatment costs from reputable insurers, with a minimum coverage of USD35,000 (around PHP1.7 million) for the duration of their stay in the Philippines (obtained before arrival). 

[Horizondave]

2 hours ago, biggles said:

I am in AC and did read on a local board that you need a $35k insurance coverage as well. From an IATF ruling:-

travel insurance for Covid-19 treatment costs from reputable insurers, with a minimum coverage of USD35,000 (around PHP1.7 million) for the duration of their stay in the Philippines (obtained before arrival). 

Yes, I read that too. I would always travel with insurance anyway and on previous trips my coverage has been in excess of what was required.